Hosted by TV legal analyst and avid reader Michael Zeldin, That Said features in-depth, thought-provoking conversations with best selling non-fiction authors about their recently-released books. Guests include prominent journalists, historians, musicians, medical and legal professionals, and contemporary thought leaders. Each episode explores the stories behind the book and the larger questions the book raises about politics, leadership, history, health, the arts, and society -- providing listeners with a deeper understanding of why these books matter. Presented by CommPRO and the Museum of Public Relations and is a proud member of the MSW Media Network.

https://s3.us-east-2.amazonaws.com/pod-public-media-files/2026/8/25/16/083462fe-1d8f-4df8-ad6f-2c04855facc7_that_said_romano_draft.mp3

Join Michael in his conversation Lois Romano about her new book <a href="https://www.simonandschuster.com/books/An-Inconvenient-Widow/Lois-Romano/9781982140724" rel="nofollow">An Inconvenient Widow, The Torment, Trial and Triumph of Mary Todd Lincoln</a> a revelatory new biography of one of the most misunderstood and vilified First Ladies in American history: Mary Todd Lincoln.Book NotesMary Lincoln was at the center of politics at a time when society’s expectations for women were rigid and circumscribed. The product of Southern aristocracy, she grew up among an influential clan of politicians and elites who founded Lexington, Kentucky. Mary’s early exposure to the male-dominated world of politics instilled in her a keen political acumen and a fierce ambition. Proclaiming as a child that she was destined to become the wife of a president, she played a crucial role in boosting her husband to greatness.But her hopes for a triumphant experience at the pinnacle of power were lost to the Civil War and unfathomable family tragedies. Still, Mary persevered. She steadfastly supported the Union war effort, visited encampments, tended to wounded soldiers, and generously donated money and gifts to refugees from slavery. She was an unconventional, larger-than-life character who dressed too ostentatiously, grieved too publicly, suffered a shopping addiction, and seemed unable or unwilling to corral her emotions, her temper, and her opinions. She made enemies—influential men who wrote her story for her, often unfairly. After Lincoln was assassinated, she was all but abandoned by the nation he had given his life to defend and preserve.Former Washington Post writer and columnist Lois Romano rectifies the tortured legacy of Mary Todd Lincoln, who was failed at nearly every turn in her widowhood—by her family, by her government, by medical professionals ill-equipped to diagnose her mental illness, and finally, by history. Romano draws on hundreds of archives, letters, and memoirs to provide the most complete portrait—of not simply of an inconvenient widow, but of a brilliant and flawed woman, who possessed uncommon tenacity in the face of extraordinary adversity and personal torment, and helped launch one of America’s greatest presidents.Biography<a href="https://www.icrw.org/staff-members/lois-romano/" rel="nofollow">https://www.icrw.org/staff-members/lois-romano/</a> Advertising Inquiries: <a href='https://redcircle.com/brands'>https://redcircle.com/brands</a> Privacy & Opt-Out: <a href='https://redcircle.com/privacy'>https://redcircle.com/privacy</a>

An Inconvenient Widow: The Torment, Trial, and Triumph of Mary Todd Lincoln | Lois Romano

https://s3.us-east-2.amazonaws.com/pod-public-media-files/2026/8/8/17/3457816d-747c-4767-9476-9cd081f7aaa1_that-said-vermeer_final.mp3

Join Michael in his conversation with Andrew Graham-Dixon about his new book Vermeer, A Life Lost and Found which is a groundbreaking study of the seventeenth century Dutch artist Johannes Vermeer. Andrew is a British art historian, art critic, author and broadcaster and one of the leading art critics and presenters of arts television in the English-speaking world. He has presented numerous landmark series on art for the BBC and in the course of his storied career, has won numerous awards for writing and broadcasting.Joining Michael as a special guest to help facilitate this conversation is Dr. Philip Eliasoph, Professor of Art History and Visual Culture at Fairfield University in Fairfield, Connecticut.Dr. Eliasoph is a Professor of Art History and Visual Culture at Fairfield University in Fairfield, Connecticut. Book NotesThe paintings of Johannes Vermeer of Delft are some of the most beautiful, even sublime, in the history of art. Yet, like the life of Vermeer himself, they are mysterious and have for centuries defied explanation. Following new leads, and drawing on a mass of historical evidence, some of it freshly uncovered in the archives of Delft and Rotterdam, Andrew Graham-Dixon paints a dramatically new picture of Vermeer and vividly evokes the world of the Dutch Republic as it was in its so-called Golden Age. Vermeer emerges from this account as a man deeply engaged with his society: well-travelled, a reader of books, a man personally connected to many of the most interesting people of his time, including merchants, philosophers, preachers, bankers, regents and bakers. He was also deeply affected by the struggles that shook his world: the Eighty Years War for Dutch independence and the yet more terrible Thirty Years War.  Graham-Dixon shows how Vermeer was moved to become a pacifist by such atrocities, and thereafter made many of his closest friends in the ranks of Europe&#39;s first peace movement. He reveals that Vermeer&#39;s closest collaborator and chief patron was a woman. These are all previously untold stories, and they have a direct bearing on his art. The many piercing descriptions of Vermeer&#39;s pictures, which are at the heart of the book, shed new light on his intentions. Graham-Dixon reveals that nearly all of Vermeer&#39;s best loved works were originally painted for a single significant location in Delft. Every one of his major paintings, including Girl with a Pearl Earring, View of Delft and The Milkmaid, are reassessed and their meanings rethought. The two great unresolved questions about Vermeer - why did he paint his pictures, and what do they mean? - are persuasively answered here for the first time.  BiographyAndrew Graham-Dixon<a href="https://www.andrewgrahamdixon.com/books.html" rel="nofollow">https://www.andrewgrahamdixon.com/books.html</a> <a href="https://drive.google.com/drive/folders/1CiDrLe3QGGSgYnsPzhlZs91PUPO60n3J?usp=drive_link" rel="nofollow">Paintings Discussed</a>Philip Eliasoph<a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Philip_Eliasoph" rel="nofollow">https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Philip_Eliasoph</a> Advertising Inquiries: <a href='https://redcircle.com/brands'>https://redcircle.com/brands</a> Privacy & Opt-Out: <a href='https://redcircle.com/privacy'>https://redcircle.com/privacy</a>

Vermeer: A Life Lost and Found | Andrew Graham-Dixon; Guest Co-Host Prof. Philip Eliasoph

https://s3.us-east-2.amazonaws.com/pod-public-media-files/2026/7/25/3/a6d085dc-93ac-4527-870f-e1ea85072e17_that_said___dr._andrisse.mp3

Join Michael in his conversation with Stanley Andrisse about his book <a href="https://www.fromprisoncellstophd.org/breaking-chains-building-futures-pathways-to-redemption-education-and-excellence.html" rel="nofollow">Breaking Chains, Building Futures, Pathways to Redemption, Education, and Excellence</a> which Chronicles his personal journey from incarceration to earning a doctorate as an endocrinologist scientist recording at the <a href="https://www.gaithersburgbookfestival.org/" rel="nofollow">Gaithersburg Book Festival</a>.Watch the event <a href="https://youtu.be/8lyXYWKu1fs?si=FY87KXNRc-MzT6xd" rel="nofollow">here</a>Stanley is an American endocrinologist, scientist and writer. He is a tenured associate professor at Howard University College of Medicine and Georgetown Medical Center.In his early twenties he was sentenced to ten years in maximum security penitentiary on drug-related charges.  Biography<a href="https://www.amazon.com/stores/author/B08XHFN2ZR/about" rel="nofollow">https://www.amazon.com/stores/author/B08XHFN2ZR/about</a> Book NotesExplore the realities of life behind and beyond bars through a collection of compelling, first-hand stories.In Breaking Chains, Building Futures: Pathways to Redemption, Education, and Excellence, activist and endocrinologist Dr. Stanley Andrisse brings together a profoundly moving collection of first-hand accounts from individuals impacted by various lengths of incarceration. This powerful book sheds light on the struggles, triumphs, and enduring hope of people navigating life under the weight of harsh prison sentences and the daunting challenges of reentry.Through these authentic stories, you&#39;ll witness the raw humanity of life behind bars and the determination of those striving to reclaim their futures. Meet inspiring individuals like:Oswald Newbold, sentenced to life at 20 after growing up with teenage parents battling addiction.William Freeman, who spent over two decades serving a life without parole sentence.Desiree Riley, a Black mother whose story highlights the intersection of race, gender, and parental incarceration.Dr. Andrisse also shares his personal journey from incarceration to becoming a scientist and leading Prison to Professionals (P2P), a nonprofit empowering justice-impacted individuals to pursue higher education and redefine success. This book is a must-read for anyone interested in understanding the human impact of criminal sentencing and incarceration. Breaking Chains, Building Futures is more than a chronicle of hardship―it&#39;s a testament to courage, resilience, and the unyielding pursuit of a better tomorrow. Advertising Inquiries: <a href='https://redcircle.com/brands'>https://redcircle.com/brands</a> Privacy & Opt-Out: <a href='https://redcircle.com/privacy'>https://redcircle.com/privacy</a>

Breaking Chains, Building Futures | Dr. Stanley Andrisse

https://s3.us-east-2.amazonaws.com/pod-public-media-files/2026/7/3/5/31079615-df3d-4106-8cc5-162b85800ef8_that_said___ungar_draft.mp3

Join Michael in his conversation with Irvin Ungar about his new book Reviving the Artist Who Fought Hitler, My Life with Arthur Szyk which tells the story of his journey from pulpit rabbi to the world’s foremost authority of the artist who became America’s leading anti-Nazi artist. Irvin has devoted the past three decades to scholarship on Arthur Szyk. He is the author of Justice Illuminated: The Art of Arthur Szyk and the National Jewish Book Award–winning Arthur Szyk: Soldier in Art; and he is the creator and publisher of the luxury limited edition of The Szyk Haggadah among many other accomplishments.During World War II, the Polish-Jewish immigrant Arthur Szyk became America’s leading anti-Nazi artist. His art was so effective that Adolf Hitler reportedly put a bounty on his head while the US military declared him a “citizen-soldier” of the free world. Szyk steadfastly fought for the rescue of European Jewry during the Holocaust, creating artworks like De Profundis, which imagines Jesus sharing the suffering of countless lifeless Jews. His civil rights art challenged segregation and his illuminated Declaration of Independence resides in the Library of Congress. Szyk’s masterwork, an illustrated Passover Haggadah, is considered by many to be one of the most beautiful books ever produced by human hands.Once world-famous, Arthur Szyk was all but forgotten after his death in 1951. Reviving the Artist Who Fought Hitler recounts Irvin Ungar&#39;s decades-long journey to restore Szyk to public consciousness, and become the principal collector, dealer, scholar, and promoter of Szyk’s art in the United States, Europe, and Israel. Richly illustrated and full of forgotten history, this memoir is an inspiring story of artistic passion and an invitation to commune with a heroic advocate for all humanity.<a href="https://www.szyk.com/irvin-ungar/" rel="nofollow">Irvin Ungar</a><a href="https://utpress.utexas.edu/9781477333020/" rel="nofollow">https://utpress.utexas.edu/9781477333020/</a><a href="https://www.szyk.com/" rel="nofollow">https://www.szyk.com/</a><a href="https://www.dropbox.com/scl/fo/o8aiq7ep1ttsb32ytd26e/AFIRFZzxt7Hk8JXUBKyq2z4?dl=0&rlkey=cqq3mpjnky11skgb13x0bdyz6&st=4xwxamil" rel="nofollow">Check out some selected works by Arthur Szyk</a> Advertising Inquiries: <a href='https://redcircle.com/brands'>https://redcircle.com/brands</a> Privacy & Opt-Out: <a href='https://redcircle.com/privacy'>https://redcircle.com/privacy</a>

Reviving the Artist Who Fought Hitler | Irvin Ungar and Guest Co-host Philip Eliasoph

https://s3.us-east-2.amazonaws.com/pod-public-media-files/2026/6/6/16/f2649be5-53df-42e4-8b27-1a9655769c9a_that_said___hays___riding_for_america.mp3

Join Michael in his conversation with <a href="https://www.nancy-hays.com/" rel="nofollow">Nancy Hays</a> about her new young reader’s book <a href="https://ridingforamericadrama.com/" rel="nofollow">Riding for America, The Story of Isaac Murphy, Sports Icon of the 19th Century </a>which tells the story of the most storied and yet forgotten African American jockey of all time.Nancy received her bachelor’s degree from University of Illinois in Urbana and master’s degree from Northwestern University. She founded Nancy Hays Entertainment, Inc. in 1993. She is a professional singer, dancer, actor, and author.Riding for America is her first book.Riding for America is a story about a mother&#39;s sacrifice and inspiration as she guides her son to become the highest-paid and most successful sports icon of the 19th century. This book tells the story of their journey from slavery to the thrill of sports success, fame, and fortune.Isaac Murphy was a superstar with class, sophistication, and impeccable integrity. His life exemplifies perseverance and triumph against unimaginable odds. Isaac was a great son, pupil, mentor, husband, friend-and a great American. He deserves to be remembered and celebrated as one of the most extraordinary sports heroes in U.S. history. Advertising Inquiries: <a href='https://redcircle.com/brands'>https://redcircle.com/brands</a> Privacy & Opt-Out: <a href='https://redcircle.com/privacy'>https://redcircle.com/privacy</a>

Riding For America | Nancy Hays

https://s3.us-east-2.amazonaws.com/pod-public-media-files/2026/6/1/5/287037b0-66e0-45c7-8c7d-83a1791943a2_that_said___sebba_.mp3

Join Michael in his conversation with Anne Sebba about her new book <a href="https://us.macmillan.com/books/9781250287595/thewomensorchestraofauschwitz/" rel="nofollow">The Women’s Orchestra of Auschwitz, A Story of Survival</a> which tells the story of a group of almost fifty women and girls from eleven nations who were drafted into band to entertain their Nazi guards and further torture their fellow inmates.<a href="https://annesebba.com/" rel="nofollow">Anne Sebba </a>is a prizewinning biographer, lecturer, and former Reuters foreign correspondent. She is a member of the Council of Britain’s Society of Authors and is also a Senior Research Fellow at the Institute of Historical Research.In 1943, German SS officers in charge of Auschwitz-Birkenau ordered that an orchestra should be formed among the female prisoners. Almost fifty women and girls from eleven nations were drafted into a hurriedly assembled band that would play marching music to other inmates, forced laborers who left each morning and returned, exhausted and often broken, at the end of the day. While still living amid the most brutal and dehumanizing of circumstances, they were also made to give weekly concerts for Nazi officers, and individual members were sometimes summoned to give solo performances of an officer’s favorite piece of music. It was the only entirely female orchestra in any of the Nazi prison camps and, for almost all of the musicians chosen to take part, being in the orchestra was to save their lives.What role could music play in a death camp? What was the effect on those women who owed their survival to their participation in a Nazi propaganda project? And how did it feel to be forced to provide solace to the perpetrators of a genocide that claimed the lives of their family and friends? In The Women’s Orchestra of Auschwitz, award-winning historian Anne Sebba traces these tangled questions of deep moral complexity with sensitivity and care.From Alma Rosé, the orchestra’s main conductor, niece of Gustav Mahler and a formidable pre-war celebrity violinist, to Anita Lasker-Wallfisch, its teenage cellist and last surviving member, Sebba draws on meticulous archival research and exclusive first-hand accounts to tell the full and astonishing story of the orchestra, its members and the response of other prisoners for the very first time. Advertising Inquiries: <a href='https://redcircle.com/brands'>https://redcircle.com/brands</a> Privacy & Opt-Out: <a href='https://redcircle.com/privacy'>https://redcircle.com/privacy</a>

The Women's Orchestra of Auschwitz | Anne Sebba

https://s3.us-east-2.amazonaws.com/pod-public-media-files/2026/5/23/16/4d9dfcb1-b4c2-4cc4-a1a6-f7532cdc8ef2__lynne_olson___the_sisterhood_of_ravensbru_ck.mp3

Join Michael in his conversation with <a href="https://lynneolson.com/" rel="nofollow">Lynne Olson</a> about her new book The Sisterhood of Ravensbrück, How an Intrepid Band of Frenchwomen Resisted the Nazis in Hitler’s All-Female Concentration Camp which tells the remarkable story of these women who joined forces to defy their German captures and keep one another alive.Lynne Olson is a New York Times bestselling author of ten books focusing on unsung heroes—people of courage and conscience who helped change their country and the world but who, for various reasons, have slipped through the cracks of history. She has been a consulting historian for the National WWII Museum in New Orleans and the United States Holocaust Memorial Museum in Washington, DC.  <a href="https://lynneolson.com/the-sisterhood-of-ravensbruck/" rel="nofollow">The Sisterhood of Ravensbrück</a>During World War II, more than 100,000 women from Nazi-occupied Europe, many of them members of their countries’ resistance movements, were sent to Ravensbrück, the only German concentration camp designed specifically for women. Among them was an extraordinary group of French women that included Germaine Tillion, a brilliant anthropologist; Jacqueline d’Alincourt, an elegant young countess; Anise Girard, an exuberant college student, and Genevieve de Gaulle, the quiet, reserved niece of Gen. Charles de Gaulle.In the midst of the camp’s terror and brutality, these four, along with dozens of their countrywomen, refused to behave like victims. Instead, they formed a sisterhood, joining forces not only to keep each other alive but to continue their battle to resist the Nazis, this time by defying their orders to work in the German war effort. “It was our way of taunting our captors, to prove that we were not defeated,” one of them later said. Knowing full well they risked death if they were discovered, they went even further, creating a satirical musical revue making fun of their SS tormentors.After the war, when many in France wanted nothing more than to focus on the future and forget about those who’d resisted the enemy, the surviving members of the sisterhood refused to allow their achievements, needs, and sacrifices to be erased. They banded together once more, first to support one another in healing their bodies and minds, and then to continue their crusade for freedom and justice—an effort that would have major repercussions for their country and the world into the twenty-first century. Advertising Inquiries: <a href='https://redcircle.com/brands'>https://redcircle.com/brands</a> Privacy & Opt-Out: <a href='https://redcircle.com/privacy'>https://redcircle.com/privacy</a>

Lynne Olson | The Sisterhood of Ravensbrück

https://s3.us-east-2.amazonaws.com/pod-public-media-files/2026/5/8/16/91bad83b-b449-4079-a361-ed2c19d11fa7_that_said__willner_draft.mp3

Join Michael in his conversation with <a href="https://ninawillner.com/" rel="nofollow">Nina Willner</a> about her new book, The Boys in the Light, An Extraordinary World War II Story of Survival, Faith, and Brotherhood which tells the parallel stories of the American soldiers of Company D and their march across Europe and that of her Jewish family caught in the horrors of Nazi German. Nina Willner is an American nonfiction author, a former US Army intelligence officer  in Berlin during the Cold War. Following her career in intelligence she worked as a human rights activist Moscow, Minsk, Prague, Ottawa and Istanbul promoting human rights and children’s cause among other issues.<a href="https://literatibookstore.com/book/9780593471272" rel="nofollow">The Boys in the Light</a> follows the parallel journeys of Company D and Eddie Willner, the author’s father, as they are caught up on two sides of World War II.At sixteen, Eddie Willner was among the millions of European Jews rounded up by Hitler’s Nazis. He was forced into slave labor alongside his father and his best friend, Mike, and spent the next three years of his life surviving the death camps, including Auschwitz. Meanwhile, in the United States, boys only a few years older than Eddie were joining the army and heading toward their own precarious futures. Once farmers, factory workers, and coal miners, they were suddenly untested soldiers, thrust into the brutal conflicts of WWII. A company of 3rd Armored Division tankers, led by 23-year-old Elmer Hovland, quickly became battle-hardened and weary, constantly questioning whether the war was worth it. They got their answer when two emaciated boys stepped out of the woods with their tattooed arms raised.The Boys in the Light is a testament to survival against all odds, the strength of the bonds forged during war and the resilience of the human spirit. This extraordinary true story is a must-read for fans of Unbroken by Laura Hillenbrand, The Boys in the Boat by Daniel James Brown, and Erik Larson’s The Splendid and the Vile.It is an epic true story of the triumph of good over evil. <a href="https://ninawillner.com/about" rel="nofollow">https://ninawillner.com/about</a><a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nina_Willner" rel="nofollow">https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nina_Willner</a> Advertising Inquiries: <a href='https://redcircle.com/brands'>https://redcircle.com/brands</a> Privacy & Opt-Out: <a href='https://redcircle.com/privacy'>https://redcircle.com/privacy</a>

Nina Willner | The Boys in the Light

https://s3.us-east-2.amazonaws.com/pod-public-media-files/2026/4/24/5/7f3527fd-5dc1-4887-bd25-fca701e32d34_that-said-draft.mp3

Join Michael in his conversation with Graydon Carter about his memoir <a href="https://www.amazon.com/When-Going-Was-Good-Adventures-ebook/dp/B0DG48QTGF" rel="nofollow">When the Going was Good, An Editor’s Adventures During the Last Golden Age of Magazines</a> which documents his life and storied journalism career including his twenty-five years as the award-winning editor of Vanity Fair.Graydon Carter is the founder of Air Mail. Before this, he was a staff writer for both Time and Life. He cocreated Spy, edited The New York Observer, and for twenty-five years was the award-winning editor of Vanity Fair. He is also the Emmy and Peabody Award-winning producer of more than a dozen documentaries and one hit Broadway play. He and his wife live in Greenwich Village, not far from his restaurant, the Waverly Inn, and have five children.Book NotesFrom the pages of Spy and Vanity Fair to the red carpets of Hollywood, editor Graydon Carter’s memoir revives the glamorous heyday of print magazines when they were at the vanguard of American cultureAfter working at both Time and Life and cofounding Spy, Graydon Carter was offered the editorship of Vanity Fair in 1992. He knew he faced an uphill battle—how to make the esteemed and long-established magazine his own. With curiosity, fearlessness, and a love of recent history and glamour that would come to define his storied career in magazines, Carter succeeded in endearing himself to his editors, contributors, and readers, as well as those who would grace the pages of Vanity Fair. He went on to run the magazine with overwhelming success for the next two and a half decades.When the Going Was Good is Graydon Carter’s lively recounting of how he made his mark as one of the most talented editors in the business, further planting a flag in Los Angeles with the legendary Vanity Fair Oscar party. With his inimitable voice and signature quip, he brings readers to lunches and dinners with the great and good of America, Britain, and Europe. He assembled one of the most formidable stables of writers and photographers under one roof, and here he re-creates in real time the steps he took to ensure Vanity Fair cemented its place as the epicenter of art, culture, business, and politics, even as digital media took hold. Charming, candid, and brimming with stories, When the Going Was Good perfectly captures the last golden age of print magazines from the inside out.Biographyhttps://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Graydon_Carter Advertising Inquiries: <a href='https://redcircle.com/brands'>https://redcircle.com/brands</a> Privacy & Opt-Out: <a href='https://redcircle.com/privacy'>https://redcircle.com/privacy</a>

Graydon Carter | When the Going Was Good

https://s3.us-east-2.amazonaws.com/pod-public-media-files/2026/4/10/12/e28b1a7d-8ef1-4a13-b3b9-31161efb0731_that-said-5-shots-2.mp3

Join Michael in his conversation with Elliot Williams about his new book Five Bullets, The Story of Bernie Goetz, New York’s Explosive ’80s, and the Subway Vigilante Trial that Divided the Nation which explores the riveting events surrounding the shooting of four Black teenagers by a white man on a NY subway car.Elliot Williams was a Deputy Assistant Attorney General for legislative affairs at the U.S. Department of Justice from 2013-2017. Prior to that, he served as Assistant Director for congressional relations at U.S. Immigration and Customs Enforcement and as a counsel to the U.S. Senate Committee on the Judiciary.He began his legal career by clerking for Judges Donald M. Middlebrooks of the U.S. District Court for the Southern District of Florida and Charles R. Wilson of the U.S. Court of Appeals for the Eleventh Circuit. He was then accepted into the Attorney General’s Honors Program, where he served as a trial attorney in the Domestic Security Section of the Justice Department’s Criminal Division.Elliot earned a law degree and master’s degree in journalism from Columbia University and a bachelor’s degree cum laude from the University of Pennsylvania. He was also a Spring 2022 Fellow at Georgetown University’s Institute of Politics and Public Service.Biohttps://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Elliot_WilliamsBook descriptionOn a dirty New York subway car on December 22, 1984, Bernhard Goetz shot Barry Allen, Darrell Cabey, Troy Canty, and James Ramseur, four teenagers from the Bronx, at point blank range. Goetz claimed they were going to mug him; the teens claim that one of them had simply asked for five dollars. Crime was at an all-time high. So was racial tension. Was Goetz, who was white, a hero who finally fought back? Or a bigot whose itchy trigger finger seriously wounded three unarmed black kids and condemned a fourth to irreversible brain damage? By the time Goetz went on trial for quadruple attempted murder, the “Subway Vigilante” saga had become a global sensation, and New Yorkers across race and class were split over whether he deserved decades in prison…or a medal.In Five Bullets, Elliot Williams vaults back to gritty 1980s Manhattan and reexamines the first major true-crime story of the cable news era. Drawing on archives and interviews with many main characters, including Goetz, Williams presents a masterful and vivid tale that also tells the origin stories of larger-than-life figures: Al Sharpton, a polarizing young local activist rocketing to national prominence; Rudy Giuliani, a rising-star prosecutor with an important decision to make; the NRA, which needed a poster boy for its transition from hunting club to political juggernaut; and Rupert Murdoch, whose new purchase, the New York Post, grew his empire by keeping a scary story in the headlines.A shocking account of a pivotal moment in our history, Five Bullets demonstrates why, in order to understand today’s debates about race, crime, safety, and the media, it’s imperative to reflect on what went down in the subway four decades ago. As Williams’s powerful narrative reveals, it was not just Goetz on trial, but the conscience of a nation. Advertising Inquiries: <a href='https://redcircle.com/brands'>https://redcircle.com/brands</a> Privacy & Opt-Out: <a href='https://redcircle.com/privacy'>https://redcircle.com/privacy</a>

Elliot Williams | Five Bullets

https://s3.us-east-2.amazonaws.com/pod-public-media-files/2026/3/27/14/39cb3cd4-5967-4800-943c-27d9ed968e44_128_default_tc__1_.mp3

Join Michael in his conversation with David Margolick about his new book When Caesar Was King, How Sid Ceasar Reinvented American Comedy which chronicles the life and times of Sid Caesar who, essentially, invented sketch comedy for television with his shows Your Show of Shows and the Caesar Hour in the 1950s. As Mel Brooks said “without Sid Caesar there would be no Mel Brooks.” David Margolick is a longtime contributing editor at Vanity Fair, where he writes about culture, the media, and politics. He served as national legal affairs editor at The New York Times, where he wrote the weekly At the Bar column for seven years. His prior books include &#34;Elizabeth and Hazel: Two Women of Little Rock,&#34; a study of the iconic photograph taken outside Little Rock Central High School during the desegregation crisis of 1957; &#34;Beyond Glory: Joe Louis vs. Max Schmeling, and a World on the Brink&#34;; &#34;Strange Fruit: The Biography of a Song&#34;; “The Promise and the Dream: The Untold Story of Martin Luther King, Jr. and Robert F. Kennedy”; “Dreadful: The Short Life and Gay Times of John Horne Burns”; and Undue Influence: The Epic Battle for the Johnson &amp; Johnson Fortune.<a href="https://www.penguinrandomhouse.com/books/107565/when-caesar-was-king-by-david-margolick/" rel="nofollow">When Caesar Was King</a> Advertising Inquiries: <a href='https://redcircle.com/brands'>https://redcircle.com/brands</a> Privacy & Opt-Out: <a href='https://redcircle.com/privacy'>https://redcircle.com/privacy</a>

When Caesar Was King | David Margolick

https://s3.us-east-2.amazonaws.com/pod-public-media-files/2026/3/11/19/9fe5ceb3-436c-4b98-a7c0-4b18cec8fb61_that_said___stephen_rea___final.mp3

Join Michael’s conversation with Stephen Rea about his new book Ozzy and Me, Life Lesson, Wild Stories and Unexpected Epiphanies from Forty Years of Friendship with the Prince of Darkness which chronicles his more than 40-year friendship with Ozzy Osbourne.Stephen Rea is a former United Kingdom newspaper journalist and the author of the memoir Finn McCool’s Football Club. Originally from Northern Ireland, he lives and teaches writing in New Orleans.Joining us as a special guest and co-host in Randy Blythe. Randy is the frontman for the heavy metal band Lamb of God. Randy was a guest on our show in April 2025 where we discussed his new memoir Just Beyond The Light, Making Peace with the Wars Inside our Head.Randy is a writer, photographer, and actor. He lives in Richmond, VA when he is not on the road touring.About the Books<a href="https://www.simonandschuster.com/books/Ozzy-Me/Stephen-Rea/9781668061077" rel="nofollow">Ozzy and Me—Stephen Rea</a>Stephen Rea was born in Northern Ireland in 1969, the same year “The Troubles” began. Violence was everywhere. His grandmother was nearly killed when gunmen opened fire on the wrong house, leaving young Stephen to pick at the bullet holes in the walls. He found refuge from this turmoil in heavy metal—especially the music of Ozzy Osbourne. As a pre-internet teenager, he hunted down dozens of live concert bootlegs—corresponding by mail with collectors around the world—and devoured every music magazine he could find.In late 1984, when Stephen was fifteen, he read about a huge festival in Rio de Janeiro that January called “Rock In Rio” whose bill included AC/DC, Queen, and Osbourne. As a lark, he mentioned it to his dad, and was stunned when he said they should go. He was even more shocked when his mother, looking for information about how to get tickets, began a correspondence with Osbourne’s secretary, who scored the family VIP passes and introduced them to Osbourne in Brazil. Thus began a friendship with Ozzy, his wife Sharon and the rest of the Osbourne family that has continued for decades.While traveling on tour in the mid-nineties, Ozzy gifted Stephen a pair of fancy leather notebooks and told him to keep a record of their adventures and conversations. The result is Ozzy &amp; Me: a beautiful behind-the-scenes memoir that proves the life-affirming, soul-nourishing power of music—and disproves the notion that you should never meet your heroes.<a href="https://www.fountainbookstore.com/lists/LQzFtZEhFHjw" rel="nofollow">Just Beyond the Light</a>In his gripping, bestselling debut memoir Dark Days, Lamb of God vocalist D. Randall (Randy) Blythe unflinchingly wrote about some of the most harrowing episodes of his past. Now, in his highly anticipated follow-up Just Beyond the Light, Blythe shares how he works daily to maintain positivity in a world that feels like it is spinning out of control. In his own words, Just Beyond the Light is a &#34;tight, concise roadmap of how I have attempted to maintain what I believe to be a proper perspective in life, even during difficult times.&#34; Written with a scathing balance of hard-edged reality offset by a knowing humor and a razor-sharp wit, voiced in in his inimitable, conversational, everyman-philosopher style, Blythe clearly breaks down his approach to life, which is a personal and idiosyncratic mix of sobriety, art, and surfing. He writes movingly of his childhood in the South, of fallen friends, of what he’s learned touring the world as the vocalist of a successful heavy metal band, and of the very real ways he is doing what he can to leave the world a better place. Above all, he offers readers hope that balance, real balance, is possible, even (or especially) when things seem hopeless. Compelling, compassionate, and refreshingly honest, Just Beyond the Light ultimately reminds readers that “as long as we keep our feet (and minds) planted firmly on the ground that is reality, the sky isn’t falling— it never has been, and it never will.”Bios<a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Randy_Blythe" rel="nofollow">https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Randy_Blythe</a><a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stephen_Rea" rel="nofollow">https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stephen_Rea</a>Stephen ReaStephen Rea was born in Northern Ireland in 1969, the same year “The Troubles” began. Violence was everywhere. His grandmother was nearly killed when gunmen opened fire on the wrong house, leaving young Stephen to pick at the bullet holes in the walls. He found refuge from this turmoil in heavy metal—especially the music of Ozzy Osbourne. As a pre-internet teenager, he hunted down dozens of live concert bootlegs—corresponding by mail with collectors around the world—and devoured every music magazine he could find. In late 1984, when Stephen was fifteen, he read about a huge festival in Rio de Janeiro that January called “Rock In Rio” whose bill included AC/DC, Queen, and Osbourne. As a lark, he mentioned it to his dad, and was stunned when he said they should go. He was even more shocked when his mother, looking for information about how to get tickets, began a correspondence with Osbourne’s secretary, who scored the family VIP passes and introduced them to Osbourne in Brazil. Thus began a friendship with Ozzy, his wife Sharon and the rest of the Osbourne family that has continued for decades. While traveling on tour in the mid-nineties, Ozzy gifted Stephen a pair of fancy leather notebooks and told him to keep a record of their adventures and conversations. The result is Ozzy &amp; Me: a beautiful behind-the-scenes memoir that proves the life-affirming, soul-nourishing power of music—and disproves the notion that you should never meet your heroes.Randy BlytheDavid Randall Blythe is an American vocalist, best known as the lead singer and lyricist of heavy metal band Lamb of God and Burn the Priest. Randy’s lyrics touch upon politics, war, existentialism, and his own personal challenges such as touring exhaustion, substance abuse, and depression.Just Beyond the Light, Blythe shares how he works daily to maintain positivity in a world that feels like it is spinning out of control. In his own words, Just Beyond the Light is a &#34;tight, concise roadmap of how I have attempted to maintain what I believe to be a proper perspective in life, even during difficult times.&#34; Written with a scathing balance of hard-edged reality offset by a knowing humor and a razor-sharp wit, voiced in in his inimitable, conversational, everyman-philosopher style, Blythe clearly breaks down his approach to life, which is a personal and idiosyncratic mix of sobriety, art, and surfing. He writes movingly of his childhood in the South, of fallen friends, of what he’s learned touring the world as the vocalist of a successful heavy metal band, and of the very real ways he is doing what he can to leave the world a better place. Above all, he offers readers hope that balance, real balance, is possible, even (or especially) when things seem hopeless. Advertising Inquiries: <a href='https://redcircle.com/brands'>https://redcircle.com/brands</a> Privacy & Opt-Out: <a href='https://redcircle.com/privacy'>https://redcircle.com/privacy</a>

Join Michael’s conversation with Stephen Rea about his new book Ozzy and Me, Life Lesson, Wild Stories and Unexpected Epiphanies from Forty Years of Friendship with the Prince of Darkness with chronicles his more than 40-year friendship with Ozzy Obsourne.

Stephen Rea is a former United Kingdom newspaper journalist and the author of the memoir Finn McCool’s Football Club. Originally from Northern Ireland, he lives and teaches writing in New Orleans.

Joining us as a special guest and co-host in Randy Blythe.  Randy is the frontman for the heavy metal band Lamb of God. Randy was a guest on our show in April 2025 where we discussed his new memoir Just Beyond The Light, Making Peace with the Wars Inside our Head.

Randy is a writer, photographer, and actor. He lives in Richmond, VA when he is not on the road touring.

Advertising Inquiries: https://redcircle.com/brands

Privacy & Opt-Out: https://redcircle.com/privacy

Ozzy and Me | Stephen Rea and Guest Co-host Randy Blythe

https://s3.us-east-2.amazonaws.com/pod-public-media-files/2026/2/27/12/4a9f28d8-a30e-444e-8c06-8feea69667ce_that_said___jf_draft.mp3

Join Michael in his conversation with Jonathan Freedland about his new non-fiction book The Traitors Circle, The True Story of a Secret Resistance Network in Nazi Germany—and the Spy Who Betrayed Them which tells the story of a circle of unlikely rebels, drawn from the German elite who shared loathing of the Nazis, a refusal to bow to Hitler and the courage to perform perilous acts of resistance. Jonathan is a British journalist who writes a weekly column for <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Guardian" rel="nofollow">The Guardian</a> and presents the <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/BBC_Radio_4" rel="nofollow">BBC Radio 4</a> contemporary history series The Long View. Freedland has published twelve books: three non-fiction works under his own name and nine novels, eight of them under the pseudonym Sam Bourne. When the whole world is lying, someone must tell the truth.Berlin, 1943: A group of high society anti-Nazi dissenters meet for a tea party one late summer’s afternoon. They do not know that, sitting around the table, is someone poised to betray them all to the Gestapo.They form a circle of unlikely rebels, drawn from the German elite: two countesses, a diplomat, an intelligence officer, an ambassador’s widow and a pioneering head mistress. What unites every one of them is a shared loathing of the Nazis, a refusal to bow to Hitler and the courage to perform perilous acts of resistance: meeting in the shadows, rescuing Jews or plotting for a future Germany freed from the Führer&#39;s rule. Or so they believe.How did a group of brave, principled rebels, who had successfully defied Adolf Hitler for more than a decade, come to fall into such a lethal trap?Undone from within and pursued to near-destruction by one of the Reich’s cruelest men, they showed a heroism in the face of the most vengeful regime in history that raises the question: what kind of person does it take to risk everything and stand up to tyranny?<a href="https://www.harpercollins.com/products/the-traitors-circle-jonathan-freedland" rel="nofollow">The Traitors Circle</a> Advertising Inquiries: <a href='https://redcircle.com/brands'>https://redcircle.com/brands</a> Privacy & Opt-Out: <a href='https://redcircle.com/privacy'>https://redcircle.com/privacy</a>

The Traitor's Circle | Jonathan Freedland

https://s3.us-east-2.amazonaws.com/pod-public-media-files/2026/2/15/18/34f6501a-6973-47fd-9ba0-61fb17219448_that_said___clyburn.mp3

On today&#39;s show we&#39;ll be speaking with Congressman Jim Clyburn about his new book, The First Eight, a personal history of the pioneering black congressmen who shaped a nation, which tells the story of those black congressmen from South Carolina who were elected in the aftermath of the Civil War while revealing why it took nearly a century before the ninth.The First Eight: A Personal History of the Pioneering Black Congressmen Who Shaped a Nation Advertising Inquiries: <a href='https://redcircle.com/brands'>https://redcircle.com/brands</a> Privacy & Opt-Out: <a href='https://redcircle.com/privacy'>https://redcircle.com/privacy</a>

James Clyburn | The First Eight: A Personal History of the Pioneering Black Congressmen Who Shaped a Nation

https://s3.us-east-2.amazonaws.com/pod-public-media-files/2026/1/28/13/400c0516-b5a3-4734-9fa8-629694a1cb7d_that_said___porwancher_final.mp3

On today&#39;s show, we are speaking with Andrew Porwancher about his new book, “<a href="https://press.princeton.edu/books/hardcover/9780691203669/american-maccabee?srsltid=AfmBOoo2OTDUbgN1PEZyDZd4ZqbRdoBen1Evyt4FOnmB9oDA_IhZXHdP" rel="nofollow">American Maccabee, Theodore Roosevelt and the Jews.</a>” This episode was taped before a live stream audience in conjunction with Adas Israel Synagogue and Temple Beth El.Most Americans underestimate how deeply Theodore Roosevelt&#39;s relationship with Jewish communities shaped both his policies and his legacy. Discover how Roosevelt’s personalized diplomacy, daring public stands, and private actions set a new standard for moral leadership on the global stage from fighting anti-Semitism in Russia to integrating Jewish diversity into America’s national identity.<a href="https://www.andrewporwancher.com/" rel="nofollow">Andrew Porwancher </a>is a historian and author of American Maccabee, exploring Roosevelt’s complex and groundbreaking relationship with Jewish Americans. Advertising Inquiries: <a href='https://redcircle.com/brands'>https://redcircle.com/brands</a> Privacy & Opt-Out: <a href='https://redcircle.com/privacy'>https://redcircle.com/privacy</a>

Andrew Porwancher | American Maccabee: Theodore Roosevelt & The Jews

https://s3.us-east-2.amazonaws.com/pod-public-media-files/2026/1/16/2/7a6cb794-2cd3-4134-9304-593494502742_that_said___matthews_draft.mp3

On this week’s show we will be speaking with Chris Matthews about his new book <a href="https://www.simonandschuster.com/books/Lessons-from-Bobby/Chris-Matthews/9781668010938" rel="nofollow">Lessons from Bobby, Ten Reasons Robert F. Kennedy Still Matters</a> which offers important lessons for public and private sector leaders alike.Chris Matthews hosted Hardball with Chris Matthews for a generation on MSNBC and now can be found exclusively on Substack. Chris is the acclaimed New York Times bestselling author of Bobby Kennedy: A Raging Spirit among many others. Chris was presidential speechwriter for Jimmy Carter and a top aide to House Speaker Tip O’Neil.<a href="https://politics.georgetown.edu/profile/chris-matthews/" rel="nofollow">Chris Matthews</a> Advertising Inquiries: <a href='https://redcircle.com/brands'>https://redcircle.com/brands</a> Privacy & Opt-Out: <a href='https://redcircle.com/privacy'>https://redcircle.com/privacy</a>

Chris Matthews | Lessons from Bobby, Ten Reasons Robert F. Kennedy Still Matters

https://s3.us-east-2.amazonaws.com/pod-public-media-files/2025/12/24/0/c4d51ac6-9531-4d22-8aa5-cd81ac00ade5_that_said___rosen_draft1.mp3

Join Michael in his conversation with Jeffrey Rosen about his new book, <a href="https://www.simonandschuster.com/books/The-Pursuit-of-Liberty/Jeffrey-Rosen/9781668053744" rel="nofollow">The Pursuit of Liberty</a>. How Jefferson versus Hamilton ignited the lasting battle over power in America. Advertising Inquiries: <a href='https://redcircle.com/brands'>https://redcircle.com/brands</a> Privacy & Opt-Out: <a href='https://redcircle.com/privacy'>https://redcircle.com/privacy</a>

Jeffrey Rosen | The Pursuit of Liberty

https://s3.us-east-2.amazonaws.com/pod-public-media-files/2025/12/9/0/fc1a96fe-8bb9-4272-bef8-5b303ffba2d8_that_said___gupta_final.mp3

Join Michael in his conversation Dr. Sanjay Gupta about his book <a href="https://www.amazon.com/Doesnt-Have-Hurt-Smart-Pain-Free/dp/1668014475" rel="nofollow">It Doesn’t Have to Hurt, Your Smart Guide to a Pain-Free Life</a> which explores the neuroscience of chronic pain and offers a seven-step process for addressing it. Dr. Gupta is an Associate Professor of neurosurgery at Emory University School of Medicine, a member of the National Academy of Medicine, and CNN’s Emmy Award-winning chief medical correspondent. Advertising Inquiries: <a href='https://redcircle.com/brands'>https://redcircle.com/brands</a> Privacy & Opt-Out: <a href='https://redcircle.com/privacy'>https://redcircle.com/privacy</a>

Dr. Sanjay Gupta | It Doesn't Have to Hurt

https://s3.us-east-2.amazonaws.com/pod-public-media-files/2025/11/27/17/e988d15f-d442-411f-a8dc-d18a603b0594_that-said-melting-point.mp3

Join Michael in his previously recorded special presentation in conjunction with <a href="https://www.adasisrael.org/" rel="nofollow">Adas Israel Congregation</a> of Washington, DC and Congregation Beth El in Montgomery County, Maryland with Rachel Cockerell about her new book <a href="https://us.macmillan.com/books/9780374609269/meltingpoint/" rel="nofollow">Melting Point: Family, Memory, and the Search for a Promised Land</a>. <a href="https://www.instagram.com/reel/DJSNdP9BIhg/" rel="nofollow">Rachel Cockerel</a>l is a writer and historian, born and raised in London. The book is an “experimental” history about her family’s search for a promised land. It centers around Theodor Herzl and the early Zionist cause that he championed and the Galveston Movement, a long-forgotten project that brought 10,000 Russian Jews to Texas pre-WWI which was led in part by her great-grandfather. Advertising Inquiries: <a href='https://redcircle.com/brands'>https://redcircle.com/brands</a> Privacy & Opt-Out: <a href='https://redcircle.com/privacy'>https://redcircle.com/privacy</a>

Melting Point

https://s3.us-east-2.amazonaws.com/pod-public-media-files/2025/11/18/19/d494602b-5399-470f-b887-a18dee5a9464_that-said-ll-pt-2.mp3

Join Michael in his conversation with Jane Leavy about her new book, <a href="https://janeleavy.com/commissioner/" rel="nofollow">Make Me Commissioner, I Know What’s Wrong with Baseball and How to Fix It</a> which is a behind the scenes road trip through the far corners of the baseball world as she sets out to uncover how the game broke, and to find the people and the ideas that just might bring it back.Jane Leavy is an award-winning former sportswriter and feature writer for the Washington Post, known for diving into a subject and emerging with work that is both meticulously researched and narratively rich. She is the author of the national bestsellers The Big Fella: Babe Ruth and the World He Created, The Last Boy Book: Mickey Mantle and the End of America’s Childhood, Sandy Koufax: A Lefty’s Legacy and the comic novel, Squeeze Play, called “the best novel ever written about baseball” by Entertainment Weekly. She lives in Washington, D.C. and Truro, Massachusetts.https://janeleavy.com/ Advertising Inquiries: <a href='https://redcircle.com/brands'>https://redcircle.com/brands</a> Privacy & Opt-Out: <a href='https://redcircle.com/privacy'>https://redcircle.com/privacy</a>

Jane Leavy | Make Me Commissioner | Part 2

Micheal Zeldin Does The Reading

That Said, is a weekly series that will take a comprehensive look at the ideas, events, and people who shape our world. Led by TV legal and political analyst Michael Zeldin, his candid conversations with bestselling authors, thought leaders, and opinion-makers will explore their ideas to help move us forward as a community and as a country.
Proudly presented by CommPRO and the Museum of Public Relations.